“When we allow that truth to be known to ourselves and we access it in a radical way, then liberation is possible.”
Rev. angel Kyodo williams
Does the skin color define a person? Rev. angel Kyodo williams is the woman behind the book Radical Dharma: Talking Race, Love and Liberation which explores racial injustice as a barrier to collective awakening. She is an African-American Buddhist, a spiritual teacher and founder of the Center for Transformative Change. She has dedicated her life to bridging the world of transformation and justice.
This episode opens up to the truth about Racism and how it divides the society. She explains how people perceive colors and how black people are deprived of equal opportunities. She talks about transformative change and reconciliation that could build a community that is parallel for all the races.
Listen to episode 79 on iTunes here or subscribe on your favorite podcast app.
79: Show Notes
Dr. Veronica Anderson’s Links:
02:21 – Journey to Buddhism
05:20 – Her identity construction
11:31 – Reason for pushing Racial Justice
16: 44 – Transformative Change
20:36 – Objectifying people and Racial divide
25:47 – European Privileges
27:10 – Why the book is called “Radical Dharma”
29:25 – Truth behind black people
33:46 – Racial truth and reconciliation
Female VO: Welcome to the Wellness Revolution Podcast, the radio show all about wellness in your mind, body, spirit, personal growth, sex, and relationships. Stay tuned for weekly interviews featuring guests that have achieved physical, mental, and spiritual health in their lives.
If you’d like to have access to our entire back catalog visit drveronica.com for instant access. Here’s your host, Dr. Veronica.
Dr. Veronica: Welcome to the Wellness Revolution again. I’m Dr. Veronica your host and we’re going to jump right in. You’re going to love this, this is a little bit different conversation but you know we always have a little bit different conversation. I have on with me a lady who is a Buddhist, African-American which it is just different you know of itself. But her life is about racial justice, she has a new book called Racial Dharma.
It’s about getting rid of all that mess that’s going on in order to be able to live fully into who you are and who America can be. We’ve got to get over this stuff and so this can, why is it important because- and why am I talking to her. Because I believe that the reason that Americans are so sick is because they’re spiritually and emotionally sick.
So they’re physically sick because the bottom of your health is your emotions. There are emotions, there’s a triangle, emotions, structure and physiology. We focus on the physiology, what diet do I eat what supplements do I take, how much to our exercise. The structure you know about that how your body is put together and sometime that’s not so good and we have to fix that. But that emotional piece, we don’t talk about hardly at all.
In our whole country we have been founded on injustices that continue to go on. The country is sad it’s angry and it’s affecting our health and so I bring to you this a lady who’s a Brooklynite. I bring to this lady because she’s living her life differently but her life is dedicated towards helping other people. So I welcome Angel Kyodo Williams. What do you like to be called, Kyodo or what is it, reverend?
Rev. Angel: Reverend Angel is usually what people call me in public.
Dr. Veronica: Reverend Angel and that fits so perfect. So Reverend Angel first I want to find out how did you come to where you are today? Give us a little bit of background on your journey to Buddhism.
Rev. Angel: So I just want to start by saying like I’m not the biggest like proponent I don’t sort of wave Buddhist flags a lot, but you know there it is, it is a choice of my life it’s a point that has really impacted the way that I think and relate to the world that I may be different than many of us. Many, many years ago I was a young person I still lived at- I now split time between Berkeley and in Brooklyn. Berkley California and Brooklyn New York but if the time I lived in New York I met stone cold New Yorker. I’ll come back here always and forever.
You know like many young people that are trying to make some sense of life and like what it’s about and really if this is it, is this is all there is to it. And in the sense of like striving and like is that what this is about like figuring out how to network and sort of that era of everybody was talking about how to network and how to get ahead. It was all about like competition and this didn’t quite feel right to me and I was also politicized right about that time and so I became very aware of feminism my generation.
Generation X was considered the most, we supposed to be the most apathetic generation we turned out to be the most active generation politically. But I went on a cross country voter registration drives. We did this great you know cross country thing where we registered you know 20,000 people to vote. But I came out on the other side of that as well, so yeah my politics and sort of like economic financial social location things were both alive for me then.
And in the politics everybody was like us versus them, we’re the better ones they’re the worst ones. You know it was like good versus evil and I just didn’t think the world could possibly be that black and white literally, right and same thing around lines of race. And I’ve stumbled across this book it’s called Zen Mind, Beginner’s Mind and that book- I’m going to pause for a second there is ferry which is very nice coming.
So that book really felt like you know I have said most recently it’s like the lyrics to the song that Roberta Flack sings, you know it’s killing me softly. Like someone had written my life and looked into my life and that’s how the book struck me. And what I found is that it didn’t strike other colored folks in the same way. They were like, okay this book like I can’t even make sense of it, but it struck me and touch me very deeply. It was by Shunryu Suzuki, a Japanese man of course I didn’t you know not met him, I didn’t have any history with Japan but this book really spoke to me.
Dr. Veronica: Wow, so what was your upbringing culturally? Is this just really outside of what your upbringing was?
Rev. Angel: I think in in many ways in some ways I say I wasn’t brought up. I mean I grew up with my dad early on and I lived with my mother in you know into my tweens and teens and in that way I ended up being kind of like on the bridge. I lived on the Brooklyn Bridge really going back and forth and in that way I got to define and shape a lot of who I was because I straddled so many things. I straddled Brooklyn and Manhattan. I left the kind of at the time harshness of Flatbush Brooklyn and went to live with my mom and I went to a school that was 95% ethnic Chinese, so I was very different in that.
In my early life I lived in LeFrak city and it was kind of like a United Nations of cultures and in Tribeca where my mom lived, there it was just like you heard languages. So routinely you were hearing Spanish and French and you could hear some German and some Italian. So I really had a sense of an amorphous you know capacity to construct my own identity and at the same time I grew up in you know a sort of vary spectrums I would say a long black mixed race community spectrum.
Dr. Veronica: Interesting because you know I grew up in you know I realized now that it was in a very unique community that was very, very, very multicultural and also my parents were just very open and flexible even though they both grew up in Philadelphia, my father relatively poor and you know my mother was adopted by her family and ended up you know in a middle class kind of nice family. It was a background that made them both open and flexible and then as in raising their children it was just all about whatever the world was offering take advantage of it, there’s so much opportunity.
But from a religious standpoint somehow my parents decided to be Catholic and so thus I was baptized Catholic even though my mother grew up as a traditional African American Baptist, my father as a Zion African Methodist [indiscernible 00:08:27]. They decided to be Catholic so here I am Veronica named after saints. So just being a black catholic when I was growing up was different but then we decided that wouldn’t working for us, it was like okay move on let’s figure out what else is working.
So and my mother was an exploratory type person, I remember her young exploring yoga and things like that and just traveling. She would go and travel, she was in college while I was young, so I saw her went to college, both my parents college graduations. And then she was traveling all over the world and she come back with all these gifts and pieces from around the world which made me say, oh my god I got to know you which is very different. Then a lot of people grow up culturally where they’re in a little tiny world, so thus I’ve always been open.
Now as an adult though I’ve taken a path where at this point in my life I do something that’s totally bizarre and weird to a lot of people especially to my, let’s call it native culture of African-Americans. Okay, so now I’m a medical intuitive I’m a clairvoyant. I don’t know many, I don’t even know anybody else who does this kind of stuff. But you know I’m a psychic, okay. I’m a psychic that’s you know a high-end psychic and I noticed a lot of times when I walk with in the community of people who look like me, it’s like that ain’t real, that’s something terrible. You know there’s been some time a wholesale attack about everything about me, everything about me. Have you experienced that from people who look like you?
Rev. Angel: You know who when my first book came out, Being Black many years ago it’s been about 17 years ago I did a tour and there was at some point at which I went to Atlanta and I went on the show and it was a Christian show and there was some like you know edge and that I didn’t quite understand as I was meeting the host you know in the radio station. And at some point someone said something about you know going to college and then going to do that you know like white religion and I said, oh I didn’t actually- I said actually I didn’t finish college and somehow the wall, the sense of like is a really big difference between us seemed to crumble.
So there was something about like I had chosen perhaps something that was about aligning myself more with white culture and when that wasn’t there when the person got really the story I think that that disappeared and since then it’s not been my experience but you know I think I’m really rather formidable. So if somebody is trying to attack us they’re not trying to do it to my face.
Dr. Veronica: Yeah, I get it. I get it from behind the scenes now social media, people don’t do this in your face they do it from behind their computer screen or cell phone.
Rev. Angel: I get it actually from white folks more, you know I think that there’s- I think there are white folks that especially because I’m pressing at the edges of racial justice and you know talking about white supremacy that I get more, more friction from white communities than I do from black communities actually.
Dr. Veronica: So let’s talk about that racial justice because this is something where those of us who walk the world in different color skin, we experience a different life and people want to say, you’re paranoid you know you need to do life this way so this won’t happen to you. What made you decide to go on that pathway of pressing racial justice? Because there are people who go into their religious community and blend in and never talk about these issues but yet you are in your face about these. How did that start?
Rev. Angel: You know for me I can’t, I live in bridge world and I always have but integration is really important to me to not live in a sense of being split and so within my Buddhist communities and Zen communities it was you know 95%. I mean there were like no colored folks, one Latino had run across and then they would be like one black person that I heard about lived in California somewhere, I was in New York at the time and I would begin to like invite people that I knew that I was connected to and they’d come in and they’d be like yeah I don’t know about this. And I realize that it wasn’t so much about philosophy itself but rather they didn’t have an experience of welcoming you know within these communities. So I asked about it and I inquired about why is it that we don’t have more colored folks.
You know what is basically many people think of it in a religion in the sense in the world scene it is religion. But in the US in particular Buddhism is much more like a philosophy of way life it’s something that people can live within that philosophy and have it co-exist with their Judaism with their Christianity with their many other things. So there was no good reason really that it should be a dearth of people of color and you know many years later I would just say that we see that now because there is a huge influx of young people of color and older folks that you know couldn’t make that step at the time that are coming into the practice.
But I leaned into racial justice because you know that is the life that we live and I wanted to have a conversation about how is it that a philosophy that a teaching that is so not oriented in a way that makes sense that it would still be racially stratified, that white supremacy would still dominate, the patriarchy still dominate with this side of it. Like what is that about, right, it’s like that didn’t come from within the religion itself. In fact Buddha was known for breaking with caste which is the racial divide of his time.
So I pressed and I want to know what it would be like and simultaneously which was the reason I wrote my first book. I wanted to create a welcoming for people of color to access to teaching in a way you know not in a religious sense. I’m not trying to convert people but actually find some tools and teachings and ways of looking at life that could be really valuable to people that are persistently put in a position of suffering, put in a position of being in contact and confrontation with institutional structures of our country and our society.
Dr. Veronica: So I had this wonderful experience last year where one of my friends invited me to see the Dalai Lama out in California. So I got on the plane and went out there and she you know she had press passes and all this other kind of stuff, so you could be up close. I ended up not being up close I ended up going inside because it was so hot. But it was a Vietnamese community and you know listening to the Dalai Lama is one thing he always has something very profound but practical to say.
The best part of the experience though was being inside among those people mostly Vietnamese who just took care of me so well that I was like I never experience this type of feeling, I never experienced even in my own community even when I’ve walked an African-American church with people who are like my mother and grandmother. I’ve never felt this well taking care of, what’s going on here. It was the most amazing experience with you know the little ladies you know the senior citizens next to me taken care of me saving my seat, making sure I got food, telling me what everything was.
You know when they said okay it’s time for lunch and then they said stay where you are we’re going to serve you lunch and there were thousands of people there and they started bringing out the lunch. I was like what is this, what is this how come I have to wait so long in life to have this feeling of community and yet when I look around I see maybe one or two other people who look like me. It was just something wild; I was like everybody needs to experience this. Like you feel like you belong.
So you talk about this transformative change and I believe America needs a huge transformation and I believe people are hating and feeling disenfranchised of all races and so we’re fighting each other because we’re feeling what do we do but fight each other. It’s like the little people fighting the little people. But if we come together and realize we’re all working for the same thing and we’re all the same, that’s going to be transformative change. So what do you mean by transformative change?
Rev. Angel: What I mean by transformative change is that when we take a position that we have that answer and that we should just go in and tell people what it is that they need. We’re objectifying those people whether we’re going in and, you know it’s like we’re going to go and fix these like you know rundown neighborhoods and this is what they need and they ought to do this and they ought to do that. You know we know better for them.
Transformative change is about- you know and it’s also like in that process we bring our own stuff, we bring the things that we haven’t work through in our own lives, our fear, our pain, our wounds. All of that is brought to bear on that work, even though we’re trying to do good work and positive work in the world, if we don’t- You touch on this right from the beginning, if we don’t work with the sort of emotional underpinnings of our internal life and don’t sort them out and kind of get to see like what is seeping out, what’s finding its way like out into the world in such a way that it’s actually hindering the work that I do or it is getting in the way of the work that I do.
So transformative change is about learning to honor your inner life and that we have, that we are whole systems in which our inner life, our inner thoughts, our beliefs, the traumas that are small and large and wounds that we carry both from our current live and also into our past lives and historical are affecting how we show up in the world. And if we are truly committed to changing the world then we want to know that in our life because it fact it drives us. It drives us more than whatever it is that we think we want to do or how we think we want to show up. At in the driver seat is that inner life.
So transformative change is about connecting our inner life to our sense of what is possible for a social justice and social change in the world. And part of that is allowing ourselves also to be affected by the people that we serve, that we don’t have a sense of like oh I’m serving you and so I’m in a better position but rather I’m in relationship with you have a relationship with your suffering and your pain the same way I am now in relationship with my own. And as a result the impact and what we get out of that is emerging, it’s produces something that is more holistic, more true, more honoring of all of the people that are involved and the planet hopefully.
Dr. Veronica: So I’m going to ask you a question off the script. But I know that you can, you’re going to have something to say about this. One thing I’ve noticed in my American experience is there are a lot of people who are Caucasian who want to help. But they don’t seem comfortable helping in America where it’s needed and so they enjoy going to other countries and I think everybody, a lot of people need help. The continent of Africa and doing all this stuff, adopting kids, setting up water.
I believe all that stuff is needed and everybody deserves but I notice that these people who will set up these fabulous organizations and charitable ways that may or may not work but you know their intent is good. When they come back to America they hardly even have any black friends. What’s going on with that, what do you think is going on with that? Because you know I see people I’m like, yeah that’s all well and good and my husband is West African, I’ve been in Africa I know they need stuff. But you’re not willing to go to Chicago and help the issue. Why are you willing to go across to a whole another continent, what’s going on there?
Rev. Angel: I think that people you know I think that the American orientation of and European orientation of objectifying people is very strong. So we were taught in this country to organize along racial divides of like who are better people and who are lesser people and who are deserving and I think that a lot of- and I don’t call them Caucasians because there’s no such thing as like any white folks, European folks came out of the Caucasus, that’s a total myth.
Dr. Veronica: Fair enough.
Rev. Angel: Though I can’t get there anymore you know trying to uphold that myth. So I think that what happens is there’s a way in which people want to help in general they’re helpful they intend good things. But the deep divide and split that was, that initiated this country and is the fundamental design and orientation of this country for there to be anti-black racism is potent and it’s powerful and those same people that intend to help.
It’s easy to go and help black folks as long as they’re objectified into a location of poverty, abject poverty, they can’t you know do anything for themselves. But there I think is an underlying belief of like well you know you’re here and you’ve been in this country, so you have all this opportunity and you’re just squandering it away. Because white folks don’t understand the nature of institutional and structural racism and how the system has been not only stacked up against black people.
A lot of people like to talk about what stacked up against white people. What I’d like to talk about is how much benefits there have been specifically designed and structures for white people over and over and over again. As they entered the country new cultures people were given specific economic advantages that allowed them to can persistently stand above blacks, Latinos and indigenous people in this country.
And so we people talk about and I think that we get sort of caught up in the sense of like oh the black people are complaining about their experience and you know really they’re just whining. It’s like yeah, you know white folks have like lived in the presence of reparation. Like not reparation, what is that thing when you get like folks ahead because of their race?
Dr. Veronica: Privilege.
Rev. Angle: Well, yes privilege but you know- I forget the name of it but the term you know that they, where people are given the opportunity because of their race they’re given special opportunities and that has been since the original design and birth of this country. And because we’re a historical and they contextual, we don’t talk about that. So we go and we look at the poor African children over there someplace else. We can look upon them as objects that you know are just needing our help. We do that in this country too you know.
I want to say that a lot of people that are part of you know well-meaning religious communities including Buddhists communities are you know quick to go and try to teach something in a prison as long as black folks behind bars and put in the position of being caged in. But yeah as you said like [indiscernible 00:26:44] in their life not you know real relationship and you know I want to say that that’s you know especially for the white folks that listen to this and colored folks that are listening to us.
We have to realize that that is what they’ve been taught. You know it’s not people are just like bad in their heart and think this way that every way that we think has been inherited from someplace else. That is the deep illness that has been inherited in this society to objectify black people in this way, to objectify black bodies. To have hatred and disdain for the experience of black peoples and the people in the African diaspora and especially when they have some level of power but are not empowered to do what it is they want to do and have lives.
Dr. Veronica: Yes, interesting because you know we talk about it and I look and- Whenever I friend people on social media you know especially Facebook that everybody’s on. You know I start looking through and saying, “I’m the only black person in their network”. And I’m a really easy black person to have in their network, because then they can talk about their black friend, Dr. Veronica, I’m acceptable because they it’s easy to whitewash me and make them like them. But yet even so I don’t necessarily feel a welcoming by these other communities even though they’re “colleagues”.
But so it’s always an interesting conversation as so why this is going on and everybody is hyper about race these days and people feel like something has been taken away from them. But I said you know Europeans came and they were given free land and free labor. Free land, thousands of acres and free labor. I couldn’t figure out why somebody have real estate, why somebody have this? They got it for free and they got the labor to work it for free. What else can you say is going to put people on top if you have everything for free?
So it’s just a little bit of the history in the background that we’re never taught as mainstream culture is not teaching that that’s how it went and certainly people who are African-American Latino, all these other cultures that came in later on are not taught how the people at the top got at the top. They came in they stole it and they used other people to work it all for free and made themself lots of money and now they’re telling us that, oh you’re just stupid and that’s why you don’t have anything. So that narrative has been frustrating. So now racial dharma, it’s like two words you put together and it’s like-
Rev. Angel: It’s actually the title is Radical Dharma.
Dr. Veronica: A Radical Dharma, okay so I’m saying racial dharma. So first you got to tell us what dharma is because that’s not a standard term in the American lexicon and then why radical Dharma. Go ahead.
Rev. Angel: So dharma has a lot of translations, it’s a Sanskrit word is the mother tongue of India and so many of the Indian languages have roots back to Sanskrit but dharma means an array of things and that’s why we chose to use the word in the title because really the, in the English language we don’t have a word that quite means the nuance thing. So it means truth and it means law and it means the way and it means you know how your path unfolds.
We’re using it primarily as a sense of truth and truth not as in not just a capital T truth like there’s some kind of ultimate truth. But that each of us have a truth that when we inhabit that truth, when we allow that truth to be known to ourselves and we access it in a radical way when we get clear and that’s both as individuals and also in society. Then liberation which is one of the words in the subtitle is talking race love and liberation.
Then liberation is possible and it’s not possible when we are not in relationship with our truth and with as we’re just talking about in terms of the historical realities of America when we’re not in relationship with that truth. Then we’re stuck and we’re liberation as a society and as individuals is not possible. People are living in just the kind of strait jacket of guilt and fear and anger and repression that has to do with not having visited the deep truth of our relationship to race and how this society was built in terms of a racial divide that allowed for the advancement of some people on the backs of the people.
It’s not just that it happened a long time ago, it was imbedded in to our social code, into our it’s institutional structures. It is here it’s alive, that history is alive and it’s, I want to say it’s well and in fact it’s just become more subtle and so if you know every time we get a Beyoncé or an Oprah. You know everybody like raises their hand it’s like yeah like racism is over we have a black president and you know we have to sort of- We then orient this notion of like the exceptional black people or the exceptional Latinos or the exceptional indigenous people. Like if they did it, anyone can and that’s not true.
You know the people that succeed despite the realities of the race in this society, it was never built the American society was never built to welcome us or to support us or to uplift us. All of the strides that we’ve made have been because we’re creative and just genius and have great fortitude and resilience and I think that America is at a place right now where it’s having to reconcile the truth of that. That we are not, we’re not- Us native Americans Latinos we are not an inferior race and when you have had people believe in their own superiority and have that confronted, I think is we have, with having such an elegant you know he was not perfect but an elegant and profound black person at the highest office in the land that really showed a great deal of grace and dignity.
It like blew up people’s idea of like you know that ape like porch monkey you know dark dangerous black people. And it threw off people’s idea of like their sense of superiority. It’s like hey actually you know those people are pretty damn amazing and they’re graceful and gracious and they’re resilient and they’re powerful and their power scares us and we don’t know what to do with that. We haven’t had the kind of conversation that lets us all, I want to say we organize and renegotiate our positions in society in social code of society.
Dr. Veronica: So dharma but radical, what’s radical about it that’s different from- Okay so dharma is a new concept for most of us, what’s radical about it?
Rev. Angel: Yeah, so in many ways radical dharma it speaks to the idea that there is a fundamental process and orientation that lives in the Buddhist teachings that would allow us to get down to that truth but if we cut off part of it and decide, oh we’re only going to look at this part and that part that doesn’t really serve us to look at and so one has to be radical. That means radix, the term is means complete. So one has to be complete in their pursuit of the truth, they have to be complete we have to complete in our willingness to look at you know the whole of who we are what parts that we have left behind and also the whole of who our society is.
What parts of our society are dark and terrible, it doesn’t mean the societies will completely fall apart, it means we have to reconcile that though. Just like we have to reconcile the parts of us that are hidden and repressed in our own bodies as you spoke about. Because they then erupt into illness and we’re seeing that illness on a grand scale in terms of a conflict within our internal national body if you will, right.
So we’re having the conflict in the body of society and the body of our country and frankly the body of our planet. And it has it has very much do with this inability to reconcile these repressed truths. And so radical means to like go back, go back and dig into the truth, it will you know as they say set us free.
Dr. Veronica: So once we all see the light, once we’re all radical admit what the truth and start really talking about what the truth is, what’s the next step? What do you envision can happen once more people start coming to say, here is what’s going on and I admit this is what’s going on, what’s next?
Rev. Angel: I think that one of the things is fundamental about the Buddhist orientation is the belief in the fundamental goodness of people and I think that racialization and the inability to deal with it or unwillingness and or incomplete of you know grasp of like the context in which we live has hindered that fundamental goodness from coming out and being allowed to connect ourselves to each other in a way that race is not our primary divide.
I mean and of course that was set up because class was our primary divide and so both race and class are intertwine with each other. So I think that what happens is that we shared a lot of this like you know 400 old guilt, we shared a lot of you know 250 year old resentment, we share another 50 years of you know of a sense of failure in terms of like civil rights and how effective it has been or has not been in terms of navigating you know great structural racism.
I think that what happens is that when just like anything that happens when you like really like sit at the table and you have that conversation that you need to be with people that have affronted you and you have affronted them and you’re in a dynamic that it begins to clear the space, it doesn’t fix everything right away but it begins to clear the space so that we can be honest with each other, we can see each other again as human beings rather than simply adversaries or someone that’s like out to get me or I’m out to get you.
I think that it lets us be human. I think that that’s what the next step is. So we get to be human and what our collective humanity being embraced produces. I’m going to let that unfold but I trust that it’s much better than what we’ve been living.
Dr. Veronica: So I am looking for you know this truth and reconciliation discussion. You know Desmond Tutu where we can start saying, okay here’s what happened and people start admitting and stop saying it wasn’t me, I wasn’t here. We admit what happen and say, okay well what can we do to move on the road to help, [indiscernible 00:40:12] of what happened. So for instance when Georgetown said we’re going to start acknowledging this that we were built on the backs and let’s figure out what we can do.
Okay so at least that we can give them people a free education or whatever. We have to start having these discussions, not just say I’m sorry but you know- about the whole of costs and you know how they get reparations for things like that. We’re talking people who’ve come in this country who are still today experiencing issues and so what do we do to improve these issues really that works and it’s not just about throwing social programs that are in adequate.
They keep you on the bottom of society at people because that’s what these- so many people are making money, the people at the top who made the system are making money on poor people on dark people. I just found out my bank is financing prisons and I’m so upset and I’m thinking, okay so what am I going to do about this, so I’m going down to talk to the bank today. But on the other side we started a real estate investment.
I’m like you know we’re buying in some of the sketchy neighborhoods affordable housing. Instead of my money going into prison I’m not going to just move it to another institution it’s probably doing the same thing in another way, I just haven’t figured it out. Let me invest that money into my community that’s actually going to help people have a great place to live for and affordable price. So we need to start having those conversations, I’m going to go face the bank and then I’m going to be on my radio shows talking about this all of Wells Fargo who I’m so pissed. So where can we find you, your book is it in on Amazon?
Rev. Angel: It’s in Amazon, it’s in book stores it’s great if you love local bookstores, it’s great to walk to the bookstore and ask them to carry the book or why don’t they have the book if they don’t have book. But it’s also in Amazon and Barnes and Noble and online. You can go to radicaldharma.com and I have a website at angelkyotowilliams.com and that’s K-Y-O-D-O, so angelk-y-o-d-owilliams.com. And you know you can get the most information there, infinitely you know Google knows everybody, so you can also just Google if you can’t scribble things down. You can just go ahead and type my name or radical dharma name into Google and you’ll be able to find plenty of information.
Dr. Veronica: And of course people who watch and listen will know that in the show notes of course we will have all the links, so that you won’t have to scribble down and worry, they could just listen and click the link. So Reverend Angel Kyodo Williams, thank you so much for the conversation.
Rev. Angel: Thank you Veronica, I appreciate it.
Female VO: Thank you for listening to the Wellness Revolution podcast. If you want to hear more on how to bring wellness into your life, visit drveronica.com. See you all next week, take care.
Dr. Veronica Anderson is an MD, Functional Medicine Practitioner, Homeopath. and Medical Intuitive. As a national speaker and designer of the Functional Fix and Rejuvenation Journey programs, she helps people who feel like their doctors have failed them. She advocates science-based natural, holistic, and complementary treatments to address the root cause of disease. Dr. Veronica is a highly-sought guest on national television and syndicated radio and hosts her own radio show, Wellness for the REAL World, on FOX Sports 920 AM “the Jersey” on Mondays at 7:00 pm ET.
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